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What types of struggles and adjustments do you like to see a swapped character..
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From: guest (vup) , 91 months, post #21

Walking in heels for prolonged periods would be next to impossible without a lot of practice. The shift in centre of gravity would make balancing very difficult especially initially.

Some good points but I disagree with this one. Little girls learn quickly to walk in heels and I don't think men are any less coordinated. It might take a little more concentration at first b/c the male in question has lived longer w/out trying it, but as long as you're on a flat surface, you'd only stumble occasionally at first. Now if he tried to run in high heels It would take him a few tries to get it right. Plus, they make wider medium heels that makes things easier. Platforms would be worse. You may as well be on short stilts. But, hey, guys have worn high-heeled platform boots so again there's nothing unique about women's balancing skills.

I never believe the (not funny) comedy cliché of a guy stumbling like he's on a log roll or on a tight wire in an earthquake.

As for shift in center of gravity, it's like putting on a backpack. You'll figure it out quick.

What would make a person in a different body clumsey (MtF or FtM) is, if you've ever worked out or fatigued a certain muscle group more than others, compound movements involving that muscle group can be awkward on the first several tries and having someone else's variance in strength compared to your own would make you klutzy for a while.

IMHO

From: guest (Bud) , 91 months, post #22

CJ, I have faith in you that you will come up with something to add to this discussion.

So men wouldn't have a hard time with walking in heels in female bodies because their center of gravity in the female bodies would help or them keep their balance?

I think eventually a man would get used to his female body and would adapt to wearing a bra and panties or thong every day. He would also probably get used to having female breasts and vagina because the brain wiring would force himself to adapt and accept it.

I think the most curious thing about adjustments would be sexual orientation. What would happen to it? Would a straight man still be straight in a female body or would the female body and female brain he now possess adjust his sexual orientation so he would like men?

From: guest (Kathie) , 91 months, post #23

There's an old SF book called "Steel Beach" that had gender switches and talked about sexuality. I liked the author's idea there: There are some people who always like one sex or the other (regardless of their sex), there are some people who always like the same sex as what they are and there are some people who always like the opposite of what they are.

(FYI, I went with women before, but, honestly, no one turned me on. Post transition, I became interested in men -- more so than I ever was in women before)

From: Air Gear , 91 months, post #24

I think my copy of Steel Beach is in the garage. I also think saving the whales got a bit out of hand.

From: guest (guest) , 91 months, post #25

Some excellent points by vup. I really like the thought of a man becoming a clumsy woman as he comes to terms with things.

That could potentially become quite embarrassing for a man. If he was confidant and suave in an way before to become a bit of a klutz would be frustrating. Particularly in public. Privately it would be more annoying than an embarrassment but falling around in front of people might cause some red faces.

As for sexual orientation. Without any outside influences, like some magic enchantment for example, I can't see a transformed man rushing into bed with a man. I think if female hormones are going to affect him in any way it would be to heighten his emotional state. At first especially I would expect a LOT of tears.

I don't meant to paint women as emotionally unstable and. Quite the opposite. I mean a man might find it more difficult to control or understand his emotional state if he has spent a lifetime keeping his emotions in check or repressed. This could lead to outbursts and ups and downs for a while until he gets a handle on things.

From: guest (Superdude) , 91 months, post #26

Re Sexual Orientation, since the OP is talking about body swap, i.e being put into the body of an existing person, I am sure in this particular transformation it is only logical for the character to take the sexual orientation of the body that they are occupying, whether slowly or immediately. Science has proven that homosexual men and heterosexual women have symmetrical brains, with the right and left hemispheres almost exactly the same size. Conversely, lesbians and straight men have asymmetrical brains, with the right hemisphere significantly larger than the left.

So while the situation in non-bodyswap transformation is more open to interpretation, in a bodyswap situation it is more likely that whoever consciousness being put in a body will follow the sexual desire of that body.

Science aside, it is also very dangerous to argue that the sexual orientation of the body can be change by the consciousness that occupies it. This suggests that the homophobic people are right ,that we can choose our sexual orientation because is a conscious choice by the mind rather than something dictated by factors we can't control such as our genes and brain structure. We don't want to be on the same page with homophobic people don't we?

From: guest (guest) , 91 months, post #27

No we certainly do not want to side with any homophobic presumptions. However in a body swap situation, Lets assume you are correct in that the likelihood is that you will follow the sexual desire of the host body. Would the male brain which makes up the identity of the man. Memories, desires, likes/dislikes etc. not play a big factor in too.

In theory could the man's brain in the female body tell the body that it wants to be with the same person it was attracted to before? Would that be enough to over-ride a built in attraction?

It could lead to an interesting struggle itself. It's possible both sides could balance out and the person becomes bisexual. Or a long term internal battle might be fought. Maybe there will be no clear winner and the two sides cancel each other out and the person identifies as asexual.

This is all purely speculative but its fun to speculate!

From: guest (Bud) , 91 months, post #28

It's a body swap so there isn't a male brain in a female's body. You can say that the essence/soul of a man is in a woman's body but he won't have a male brain in the female body. The brain would be female since the body is he swaps with is female.

Maybe it would be like Please Come Back Mister. The female body would make you hot around men but your memories of being a man would fight the physical aspect of your female body including the vagina and boobs.

So how long would it take most men that have never cross dressed to be able to walk in heels if they swapped with females? A day or two, weeks, months, or years?

Just imagine the tightness of the clothes too. Men don't really wear tight clothes like women do unless you're a guy that likes skinny jeans or wears tight t shirts to show off the muscles. Women wear a lot of tight clothes to show off their butts, legs, stomachs, and breasts. They also wear low cut shirts as well.

Having child bearing hips and curves would also be something to consider as an adjustment.

From: guest (Gypsy) , 91 months, post #29

the psychological aspects of losing a person's comfort zone- body, reflection, etc

to me the idea of the struggle to regain or retain a sense of self is vital to a story and a struggle

if the person makes the change and simply flips personalities then I can not find an interest, and I am done with the story

From: guest (JosieChung) , 91 months, post #30

> I really like the thought of a man becoming a clumsy woman as he comes
> to terms with things.

I am just a sample size of one (me) and I have memories of identifying as a transgender female since 5th grade in elementary school. For as long as I could remember, I had always been clumsy and just accepted it. After my initial newness to heels and other traditional women's garb wore off, it was quickly noticed by the few people I'm out around that I'm actually much less clumsy when presenting as a woman. It's not even heels or movement-limiting dresses; I'm consistently less clumsy just puttering around the apartment in a woman's t-shirt and jeans. But when circumstances force me back into male clothes, I'm clumsier again... even, I've noticed, when it's just me alone in the apartment in casual men's jeans/pants and a shirt.

Is it some psychological reminder to myself about my profound discomfort in a male role? Is it evidence of my consciousness/mind trying to emulate a male physicality that runs contrary from what is stamped in my female-imprinted physical brain structure ? I honestly don't know.

I offer this anecdotal experience (albeit singular) as an thread/seed... Maybe an author could run with this, or a variation in this, as a char cater adjusts or doesn't adjust to the physicality and social role of their new body?

From: cj , 91 months, post #31

Bud -- remind me not to bet against you.

Ah, heels. Vup states that little girls seem to take to heels rather quickly. But I do wonder about that. I've seen little girls in their mothers' high heels struggle to move, mostly sliding their feet in the heels. But then I've also seen young ladies in short and wide heels with no problems whatsoever. Of course, I've also seen plenty of boys and men wear shoes and boots with short and wide heels as well, with no problems.

I think the problems start to be evident when someone who is not used to heels (little to no experience in work boots, dress shoes, formal shoes or cowboy boots) suddenly has to deal with the extreme angles of 4 or 5 inch tall and very narrow, stiletto-type heels. It is an angle that the experienced male is likely not used to working with. These aren't the type of heels that a woman just throws on and masters the first time. These are the types of heels that a woman works her way (and confidence level) up to. Not only that, but a woman who has been living and working with her body for years, has grown up learning and knowing (subconsciously) the physics and dimensions of her own body. She will have learned how to adjust her gait for different geometry and any restrictions that heels present to her movements and balance.

In other words, my opinion is that a man would not be able to readily jump into a woman's body, or suddenly become a woman physically, and then be able to manage towering stiletto heels. But he should be able to manage a short, and maybe even a medium heel, especially if the heel is wider than a stiletto. But a bit of practice, and he'd soon be able to work most any heel he chooses.

Now... if a man's self / spirit / soul was swapped into a woman's body... and her physical brain was still resident there... well, then he might have her learned skill with heels and may take to them immediately.

And this is where the next part of my post goes.

The way that a man becomes a woman could have a great effect on everything that we are discussing here. If it is simply his essence or soul or spirit... the man himself as an ethereal thing, then the woman's physical brain is in play. I would think that he would then have not only access to her memories (which may feel primary and more dominant than his own), but he will probably have her learned skills and that subconscious body-knowledge. how she knows her own body's limits and measurements, and abilities. These could highly influence gait, comfort, desire, preferences, comportment, among may other things (including personality).

If the man's brain is physically moved into a woman's body... well, I think that there are some parts of the woman's brain that would need to remain, those that are most tied to body control. So there could be some residual effect as listed above. But such a transfer is likely to necessitate the man's brain re-learning a great many things, including locomotion. So it's difficult to even guess on how much of that would come from the previous host, and how much was learned by the man-now-woman.

What about transferring via some type of mind-swapping helmet? Well, that's real fun, because this could simply be tricking the woman's brain to believe that she is the man, and to recall his memories. She might still be herself, but just think that she's the man. And since a thing is basically overwriting the existing female brain, a very complex organ, the woman's memories may still find a way to remain or return, and then the real fun would be the "swapping" back, when the two are "returned" to their own selves. Then the man would have the memories of being in the woman's body, even though he never really left his own. Now the real interesting thing to contemplate is just how much of the woman is over-written by the man... will his preference for female sexual partners overpower her desire to be taken by a man? Will his horrible sense of style be inflicted upon the woman? And what happens if the woman's preference for male sexual partners is so strong that when they're returned, that strong preference is then written back to the man? What if he enjoys her sense of style and flair and that is lost when they swap back?

Now, if he woke up a woman, in an alternate reality where he'd been born a woman... but remembers being a man, and never a woman... I would think that such a man-turned-woman would have little difficulty in working his "new" body, unless he tried to think about it too much. The same for clothing and cosmetics and selecting appropriately matching pieces and accessories.

And then we have hormones... I've heard plenty of relatable stories from those who have transitioned (I believe one of our posters here alludes to this as well) who state that the introduction of female hormones has caused them some real emotional swing, much like a teenage girl going through puberty. I'm sure that that is partly their mind, but also their body going through the changes in hormone levels, but perhaps a man being swapped into a female body by whatever means, may have some wild swings that they are not used to. But once they adapt, things will be a bit more "normal" for them. Though into an existing and mature woman's body, the swings may not be as large (though to the men, they might be) and the adaptation faster.

Just some things to consider from my way too curious mind.

From: cj , 91 months, post #32

JosieChung -- certainly something to consider. I hope that you don't dwell obsessively about those things, but I do hope that you do indulge on exploring the cause / reason behind the trait.

It certainly is interesting. But then the human mind is still quite a complex mystery to us. All the simple things that make it work, but how it all works together to do the things it does...

From: guest (Bud) , 91 months, post #33

The soul swap method seems less dangerous and complicated than an actual brain swap. Having a male brain inserted into a woman's body just doesn't seem right to me because you're messing with nature and the natural order of things. A soul swap probably wouldn't be perfect either but I think it would fewer negative side effects and consequences. I guess a bad thing that could happen is how a male's soul would fight the female body over sexual preference and feelings. A male soul in a female body would have to deal with female hormones and a female brain. The body would be telling the man that he is supposed to get all gushy and hot around men but his memories of being a man would fight it.

It would be so weird because which would win the soul or the body and brain?

And when it comes to heels, it does make sense that maybe a man wouldn't struggle that much with heels since he would technically have a female brain if it was a soul swap or transformation and not an actual brain swap.
Isn't Lalola an example of how the female body gave Lalo some hidden mannerisms and habits from the previous owner (Daniela)? He wore red heels a lot before he even knew he was in the body of Daniela right? So couldn't that be a case of residual memories left over from the female body?

I think in Pimmala, the witch that curses the main character puts an extra spell on him that makes it where his mannerisms are girly thus making it where he walks flawlessly as a woman and in heels.

From: guest (Brain Swap) , 91 months, post #34

I don't think brain swap can be done since brain size & head size vary between humans. It has to be soul transfer or memory transfer.

From: cj , 91 months, post #35

Given the right male and female donor, a brain swap could be possible. But there are so many things that would make it not so preferred. The scars, the amount of work the neurosurgeons would have to do to connect it all up, the recovery and therapy to retrain the brain for the new body after such trauma, preventing rejection of the new brain by the host body, everyone thinking that you are the former occupant, and so on.

But yes, I too prefer a "magical" swap from one physical vessel to another. I had a semi lucid dream a bit back where I was occupying someone else's body, and then somehow the person I had "swapped" with and I were cut off from our own bodies when the tether that held our soul to our own body was severed. Our souls now floating freely, but still within the other's body. But the living body I was in freaked out looking for her soul, as its severed tether touched my soul, I tried to calm it, but it was a young body and very frightened. It tried to connect to my soul, and I gently refused that connection. But I began to wonder what it'd be like to be that girl, not just in her body... but part of it. And then didn't refuse the connection, but instead welcomed it. I could feel more and more of her memories as the tether was "healed", they were over-powering my own memories and became dominant as I was connected bit by bit to her brain. I could still feel my own memories from my life as a boy and a man, but they seemed like distant echos, ghosts of a past that I had to work to retrieve. Eventually, I realized that I was beginning to take on much of her personality, her habits, her quirks and traits. That's when I started to become frightened, that I was going to lose my own self, to be replaced by her... that I was going to become her completely and that I would disappear.

That's when I woke up. So I tried to imagine further into that dream. That I'd shake my head as I realized that I wasn't going to disappear, that I was still me. Of course by "me" I was thinking of myself as her. My spirit... my soul was now completely integrated into her body, I had now taken her place completely. I considered myself -- I knew that I was now this girl, I had no doubt who I was... but I also know, that even as I remember everything about growing up as this girl... those memories were mine, as if I myself had lived them, I knew that I had not always been this girl, that I had been someone else... but it felt completely different, as if it had been a previous life... a life separate from my this life as this girl.

Now that would be a trip to experience... but it's dang close to identity death, and there wouldn't be much struggle to adjust to the new life, if during integration into your new body, you became connected to her brain completely and all of her memories and skills and such became yours.

From: guest , 91 months, post #36

Um... I really don't think walking in heels has anything to do with having a male or female brain or psyche. I think it's just like riding a bicycle -- some would pick it up fast and get used to it and some would not and some would just hate it. As someone earlier said, heels used to be for men only (just like pink used to be for boys).

This is why some women almost always wear flats and not heels -- they hate them and some just CAN'T walk in them.

I remember the first time a GF of mine saw me walking in heels, she literally said "HOW do you walk in those things?!?" She could never wear heels more than about 1 inch.

From: guest (JosieChung) , 91 months, post #37

Yeah, I don't think "skillfully wearing heels" vs. "not" is baked into anyone's gender & brain. But I do think that many of society's expectations of how each of us are obligated/supposed to fulfill our assigned gender roles gets absorbed & internalized early on in our development. And as adults, the pressure to fulfill all elements of those roles can be substantial, which may help explain the relief/enjoyment many feel when they can temporarily stop (or even just fantasize about stopping) performing their assigned part.

Or how a significant minority fantasizes about temporarily trying on the role of the "other side." :)

Whatever the reasons for my own reactions when in male vs. female clothing (or behaviors, interests, activities, hobbies, etc.), I am certain it happens because I have been socialized that certain things are "female" and others are "male." My women's sneakers are negligibly different in appearance from my men's (sized narrow) sneakers and are even made by the same company (this was my purposeful choice). That I feel more relaxed, more comfortable, "more myself" wearing the women's sneakers doesn't logically make sense... but even though I am aware of it, it doesn't change how I physically & emotionally react.

I think who we are as individuals is a complex mix of hardware (flesh, physical neural structure, hormones) and software (our sense of self, our experiences, our expectations, our workarounds for our physical inefficiencies/deficiencies). It makes sense (to me anyway) that running the same "operating system" or software on different hardware, even just slightly different, can often produce observably different results and behaviors. Not necessarily better, or worse... just different.

CJ - I'm not sure I dwell obsessively on it, but my brain is always active, often hyperactive. If I wasn't thinking about this, I'd be mentally dissecting something else. Often, my brain is churning away on a few somethings else.

From: cj , 91 months, post #38

"I don't think "skillfully wearing heels" vs. "not" is baked into anyone's gender & brain."

Probably the only thing that would have bearing on heels when swapping genders, would be if the man was swapped into the woman's body... with her brain. Then it is conceivable that the man would have all of the woman's memories and the learned skill of actually working towering stilettos without any practice of his own. You know, if the woman had learned to deal with them prior to the swap.

JosieChung -- Good to know you're not negatively obsessed. I do understand the brain-on, always-thinking about something thing. Makes for some sleepless nights when you can't turn it down.

From: guest (Bud) , 91 months, post #39

Maybe it's my heel/feet/leg fetish talking but I don't see why people hate on heels so much. Women look great in them. Yes, I know they cause pain and I would never force a woman to wear them or anything that makes her feel pain or uncomfortable. But if she wants to, why not?

There are some pros for a guy if he was turned into a woman and chose to wear heels. He likely wouldn't have to have to worry about tying them unless they had laces and also wouldn't have to worry about socks either.

And with the memories aspect, perhaps it would be like the movie Frequency. You would have your own memories but also the memories of the woman whose body you're in. That could be helpful but also too much since yes it would help you perform female tasks like walking in heels, putting a bra on, and using a tampon. But it could be too much since you would remember all the times the woman had been intimate with a man. Can you imagine remembering that in your mind even though it wasn't you?

This is somewhat of a rhetorical question but why are men so obsessed with heels when it comes to women? Is it just a part of nature? I know some guys will say crap like "oh well I don't care what she wears or I love seeing her in her birthday suit" but I smell lies. I would say 90 percent of straight guys love it when a woman gets dressed up and all pretty just for them. Guys like the effort and the fact that a lady did all that preparation and work just to look nice for them.
And again, women don't have to do that for guys. They shouldn't be forced either. However, if they want to dress to impress their special guy or man then why not?

From: guest (PassingThrough) , 91 months, post #40

The physical stuff makes for a fun read, but honestly, people get used to stuff. Clothing, longer hair, being shorter, even personal hygiene and bathroom issues-- give it a couple of months (although periods will always be annoying. As a previous poster pointed out, the majority of women aren't thrilled when that time of the month comes, and some suffer serious PMS/cramps issues).

What I'd like to see more of would be stories where the newly transformed deals with the social issues of being female. Women frequently act differently because they have to. Even simple stuff like how to get your point across in an office meeting is colored by being a woman. Growing up, boys can run around pretty much anywhere, girls quickly learn that their world is more constrained. And so on. I suspect a former male would have a hard go of it at first until he, now she, learned how to be more female in her interactions.

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