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Message From A Male To Female
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From: cj , 103 months, post #81

"... mods can see ip's..."

Trusted Users see the same user info as the guests (no IP addresses) - that seems to be reserved for admins for those "as needed" cases.

"... I personally prefer the guest name as I don't like committing to nicknames. Because I'll end up changing my mind later and wanting a new name..."

As long as you're not registering your nickname, you can change your alias as often as you like (just don't pretend to be someone else), and still retain some anonymity as a guest (with a perhaps-unique alias).

And you're still free to post as a just plain old "guest". I was merely pointing out that sometimes doing so can make visitors think that you're the same "guest" as all the others.

"... of the opinion that threads are more fun when people are allowed to stray a little off topic now and again, and conversations aren't micromanaged, but that's me."

Me too. Ever see how many posts I TAKE off-topic, (even a few where I then have to chide myself for doing so)? As for the micromanagement... yeah, it's a give and take thing. A very fine line sometimes. We want to keep the site somewhat comfortable & discussions civil and non-threatening, and try to keep it safe/legal for teen eyes.

This started off as a thread that could be quite educational for a teen dealing with the gender question... but the language being used recently started to taint this as a thread I would want to share with younger eyes. Still not enough of an issue for me to really want to remove posts or issues cautions.

We each look at our posts and those of others through different filters and against different measures. We all try to do the best we can. And yes, both of you were in the right for calling each other (and me) out. It's adds to the discussion... not necessarily of this topic, but of the Message Board discussions here.

From: cj , 103 months, post #82

Forestier - 2, 3, and 4 are close for me... but the whole thing still doesn't define me quite right. I think my desires are changing, save for one thing - I just don't feel quite right in my own skin.

From: guest , 103 months, post #83

Not to detract from this thread any further but I love you CJ, you deal with issues with such finesse and diplomacy, and it seems like you try to actually look at things from the various different perspectives of the people voicing their opinions and empathize with where they might be coming from. You have true leadership qualities, and you're my hero of the day.

From: cj , 103 months, post #84

Thank you. I'm honored.

From: guest (Trance) , 103 months, post #85

Message deleted by cj. unnecessary - copied from another thread.

From: guest (Hysteria) , 103 months, post #86

Message deleted by cj. accusatory without substantiation.

From: guest , 103 months, post #87

Message deleted by cj. personal attack

From: guest , 103 months, post #88

Message deleted by cj. personal attack

From: cj , 103 months, post #89

Message deleted by cj. re-opening thread to guest posts

From: cj , 103 months, post #90

Now that we've all had to time to cool down a bit...

Thread is now re-opened to guest posts. Please keep the discussion civil. Be polite, courteous, and respectful. Please follow the Posting Guidelines (which you can right below the "Add a New Message to This Thread" text-entry box).

From: guest , 103 months, post #91

I HAVEN'T COOLED DOWN, I'M STILL HOPPING MAD.

FUCK ALL OF YOU!

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Haha sorry I just couldn't help myself/.

From: Forestier , 103 months, post #92

Found this message on Quora

Rod Fleming, Author of 'Why Men Made God'

'Do transgender people sometimes have sexual motives to transition?'

(I am editing this answer because it needs strengthening. )

Yes indeed they do.

The established science on this holds that there are two completely distinct routes into transsexualism, as far as Male to Females are concerned. This dichotomy is directly observable and has been statistically and otherwise proven over and over again. One type presents very young, generally before puberty, although they may present as late as their 20s, forming a potential overlap with the second type. They will have been noted for their femininity as boy children and nay have cross-dressed, though a lot depends on how repressive their surroundings are. This type is exclusively, and strongly, attracted to men. There is a clear relationship between this type and very feminine gay men.

This type is today generally known as 'early onset androphile', 'Blanchard HSTS' or 'transkids' (because they so often present as children.) In the past they were known as 'Type One' or 'True' transsexuals. I will use the convention 'HSTS' to save my fingers.

The other type presents later. They will have had typical boy childhoods, be very masculine, probably achieved well in masculine areas, are probably married and have children by the time they present and, at least prior to transition, will not have shown any attraction to men. These are called 'late onset non-androphile' or 'Blanchard autogynephile', usually shortened to 'AGP'. They were once known as 'Type 2' or 'pseudo' transsexuals. I'll use the convention AGP.

The differences between these two and their consistency confirms the existence of the two types. (Note: there are only two types although both show variation. This has been used by some people to suggest there are more than two. This is not the case.) Final confirmation of this came in 2010 when MRI-based studies conducted by Rametti et al on screened HSTS found that these had brains that were similar to women's, while a parallel study led by Savic and Arver in Sweden on screened AGPs showed they had brains 'indistinguishable from men's'. Both these were properly conducted scientific studies which tested only subjects who had not begun hormone treatment and used proper controls. (A level of scientific competency that is rare in this field.) These results confirm what we known from statistical and other analysis, and which is known by anyone who interacts with trans women: there are two types.

Ray Blanchard has shown in numerous papers that both these types involve sexualised motivation. HSTS are sexually attracted to men from childhood. Their desire to be beautiful women is driven by this attraction; and in fact it's obvious even to the lay observer. These are typical, sexually active women who like men. Their desire, in other words, is hetero-normative.

AGPs are far more complex. Blanchard found that they were sexually or romantically attracted to themselves as women. Essentially they have a second female personality which they will increasingly feel comfortable in, to the point that they transition and become that personality. They are likely to have had a history of secret cross-dressing. Frequently this involves masturbation. I have come across narratives wherein the person fantasised about playing both roles sexually but became more fixated on the woman's one; how common this is I don't know.

AGPs present later, usually in their 30s or 40s. There is no evidence that they became conscious of themselves as girls or women before puberty; this is when the cross-dressing and fantasy begins, and when the second personality will appear. The individual may work very hard to suppress these elements of their sexuality, and many succeed; we simply do not know how many AGPs live their lives as men.

Both the HSTS and AGP types are therefore, at least in large part, motivated by sexuality. While HSTS is a normative orientation that is relatively simple to understand, AGP is different, far more complicated and many people have difficulty understanding it. But both are simply a part of normal human variation.

The idea that transgender is somehow not related to sexual orientation comes from two sources, both of which have fed into a ridiculous level of obscurantism and are driven by politics. The first of these comes from gay men. The current Western gay movement seeks to suppress all forms of femininity in men and pretend that all male-attracted men are hunky macho men. They have spent decades trying to eradicate HSTS trans women by turning them into gay men, with the aid of quacks like Ken Zucker and many others, alongside religious and other influences.

The issue here is that the modern gay male movement seeks to show that is it not feminine to be attracted to men, and so there must be a divorce between sexual attraction and gender. But this is a political aspiration, developed in the academic Trivial Pursuits societies that have no relationship to the real world. What this seeks to establish is that liking men doesn't make one a woman -- which clearly, HSTS torpedo, by their very existence. Thus the gay men seek to suppress HSTS women. (The real question should be 'How many gay men are actually women pretending to be men?' -- and lest this question offend, let us remember that that is exactly what Zucker et al have spent their lives doing -- conditioning straight trans women to think they are, and to live as, gay men. QED.)

The AGPs have another take on this. They, quite reasonably, dislike being labelled as fetishistic cross-dressers. To be fair to both them and Blanchard (who has ever been blunt in his language), he did, in several papers, point out that there are many forms that autogynephilia can take and sexualised cross-dressing is just one. However, sadly, a bigoted society hears 'crossdresser' and makes up its own mind.

The core of AGP is not the sexual gratification but the existence of the feminine alter ego. HSTS do not have this. There is only one person inside her head and that person is a woman. The AGP is not like that. She has two persons and because one is a heterosexual man and the other is a woman, the first becomes obsessed -- or if you like, falls in love with -- the second. Hence the term autogynephilia, which means 'in love with oneself as a woman' or maybe we might say 'in love with the woman inside oneself.' Clearly this love can have both purely romantic and sexual manifestations, and this probably accounts for the proportion of AGPs who are analloerotic (asexual).

AGPs who are attracted to men only become so as their woman personality establishes herself and takes over control. In their narratives, they frequently allude to 'wanting to try sex as a woman' or 'wondering what it would be like to have a date with a man'. HSTS don't have this issue because they are having sex with men as soon as they are able to, and have absolutely no sexual desire for women either inside or outside themselves.

So why do HSTS not just live as gay men and AGPs as crossdressers or crossdreamers? The answer is gender dysphoria. This is a sense of increasing discomfort with the gender of one's body. It can be so intense that it leads to suicide. It is this that drives that final commitment to transition full time. Both HSTS and AGPs suffer it, although there is some evidence that the forms are not quite the same; this is to be expected, since the HSTS is not internally conflicted -- she has only one personality to deal with.

We often see it claimed that dysphoria is the cause of transsex, but this is not true. That would be like saying toothache is the cause of dentistry, when in fact there is an underlying problem, bacterial infection of the teeth. Dysphoria is a symptom, not a cause; but just as sneezing can be caused by a virus or by an allergy, dysphoria has two, mutually exclusive, causes.

We also see it claimed that there is a 'female essence' that is separate from sexuality and concomitant dysphoria, but this has never been established outside of the personal narratives of AGPs, which can never be verified. (HSTS personal narratives are easily verified: you ask their childhood friends. They'll confirm she was always a girl. This never happens with AGP.)

So the two types are established to exist and have their root causes in sexuality; they are not the same but end in similar results and in both cases, the solution is easy -- transition.

Finally, I am have put a page up on my website at http://rodfleming.com/links/with links to the papers I mention and other sources. Quora does not pay me and I do not have time to add each link in each article I write here. So in future I'll just put a link to my links page at the foot of each answer.

From: guest (Kathie) , 103 months, post #93

Sorry -- I have been sans-internet for a while. Looks like a lot has happened here during my deafness. I don't feel like reading it all so I'm just responding to that last post.

Interesting. I fit neither of those two patterns. I had lots of T-feelings early on but, due to social pressures (both at school and at home), I worked real hard at FAKING being a guy. And, I often failed miserably. It was as if, no matter how hard I tried, everyone knew.

I had almost no sexuality (save fantasies of being female and dating men) pre-transition. I had no attraction toward women or men in real life, but I learned to fake that, too. By the time I had faked it enough to end up living with someone and engaged, I realized I couldn't go on any further. The rest, as they say, is history.

From: guest , 103 months, post #94

I don't think I fit either category in the quoted Rod Fleming material precisely. I'm closer to the second but the desire to be female started young -- definitely there by age 5 -- though there wasn't a trans-kid set of behaviors. I'd guess I have more of a stereotypically male brain, and I'm more attracted to women than to men.

Plausible explanation of the historic hostility between gay men and the transgendered. It's papered over a lot these days with the whole LGBTQ alphabet soup, but I'd guess it's still there.

From: Forestier , 103 months, post #95

Found this website

I am definitly a crossdreamer .

From: Forestier , 103 months, post #96

Kathie: "The rest, as they say, is history."

But I do not know this history. In page 2, I asked you:

"Kathie,

Are you a transwoman? If so, how do you relate to the diverse aspects of the OP? For example, that your experience was not what you expected (in which respects?), or the desire you sometimes still had a penis."

Both the OP and Hysteria seemed to think they made a mistake transitionning. Do you feel they are right?

From: guest (Kathie) , 103 months, post #97

To answer direct questions directly: Yes. And I definitely did not make a mistake. I am much happier now than I ever have been before and I now understand what it is that people enjoy about sex (never found it enjoyable at all in "the other role"). I never desire having a penis. In fact I often have thought to myself that I have no idea what it would feel like to have one -- it often seems like I just had a bad dream once that I had one.

I can say that I often wished that I hadn't needed to do what I did. It made life much more difficult -- my parents and I often disagree and I occasionally have an old name problem haunt me (even after many years) and I missed all those young years (teens and earlier) that I would have loved to have had. But, given the circumstances, I have no doubt in my decision.

From: guest (Hysteria) , 103 months, post #98

I kinda envy you, Kathie. I'm not planning to detransition, but I wish I had half as much confidence in my identity in terms of gender as you do. My self image is a fuzzy mess, and that makes me feel awkward doing a lot of things and generally unsatisfied with a lot of relationships.

Anyway, it's worth noting that a lot of the stuff posted above - Including Ray Blanchard's works - Is quite dated and has been medically discredited in most circles. The binary between true transsexualism and autogynephilia has basically been dismissed as an incredibly over-simplistic understanding for a set of issues of tremendous diversity and complexity. (I sure as hell never thought I had a "feminine alter ego" at any point, whatever that means.)

Anyway, I realized I missed a question from way earlier.

"The OP's author wrote: “People treat me in ways I haven’t experienced since I was in high school - being condescending, acting superior, and not taking me seriously.” Did you experience something like that?"

The way I interact with and am treated by close friends hasn't really changed at all since my transition, but strangers definitely act differently and sometimes a little crappily. One weird thing I've noticed is that when shopping for groceries, sometimes dudes running the till will comment on the food I'm buying ("This doesn't look very healthy, does it?", etc) which would never have happened before my transition.

Some men are also a lot more patronizing whenever I get annoyed by things, and tend to talk over me in arguments without listening to what I'm saying. This is especially true for when I'm playing video games.

I also never used to see people ever reference my race before (chinese) except when I was being bullied as a very young kid. But now both flirts and insults focus on it a lot more often. I won't go into specifics on that point but needless to say it is very weird and raises some questions about how the average person thinks.

From: Forestier , 103 months, post #99

Thanks for these answers.

Making categories doesn't mean things are binary, Hysteria. It only means they are diverse.

From: guest (Kathie) , 103 months, post #100

Oh, Hysteria, I am probably not nearly as confident as I sound. All I typed above comes from my brain... every once in a while my heart says "am I sure that I couldn't have made it work?" In other words, the doubts pop up, but all the evidence shows that I didn't do the wrong thing. I have come to the conclusion that most of the doubt is lingering remnants of being raised as a boy for as many years as I was combined with the the *irrefutable* evidence (my own body) that I was a boy. That's not something you can wipe out of your brain in just a few years. For a while there, I wondered if there was any way that I could self-induce amnesia in some way because the worst part of my life right now is the memories of how I grew up. There's no way to summarize it short of "hell".

It always astounds me that anyone ever thought I had a choice in this. It really annoys me when people call us (as they have so many times in the Jenner stories) brave. I am not brave... I had no choice. It might have been more brave to say and do nothing about this and just drive my car off a cliff or something -- and might have been easier for those around me (including my parents and my then finance) to deal with. When someone calls me "brave", I get angry because it's clear that they have no clue what my choices (or lack thereof) were and what I was going through. Romanticizing transsexualism is, to me, like romanticizing the nazi prison camps. I would never wish this on anyone.

So... lots of people like to dream and fantasize about this and "what fun it would be." I would much rather have been "normal." I probably would have married, had kids, had a successful career (instead of spending a lot of mental energy dealing with these issues). But, I had what I had, did the best I could with the cards I was dealt and may very possibly die alone -- but less miserable than trying to force-fit myself into the role that my physical makeup said that I should play.

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