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Opposite Sex - Actual Desire To Be, Or Is It Just Envy?
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From: guest (Arcad) , 137 months, post #21

I think I like traits of both genders, and don't feel I conform to either. Both come with judgement and expectations of what you can/cannot do, so I think I would want to be in some in between state. I would love to both father and mother a child. I don't like being pushed into just the "mother" role. To me, the idea of penetrating someone during sex is more appealing than being the receptive role, because I like the idea of dominating them and the way they would look at me while I do so. BUT I think I would be just as unhappy being stuck without a vagina, because I love vaginas and all the blood and sticky stuff that comes out of them. It would be awesome to have both.

I don't envy men....I think I am more lucky to be a woman in society...men have the image of being the gross muck on the bottom of a person's shoe. Most women in society are told...why would you want men? Women are so much more desirable than men, they are more beautiful, they are kinder, don't abuse etc. I would hate to have the sort of image men get thrown on me. Plus I think men are more boxed in as far as how they can act. There's all this stigma on acting 'unmanly': can't be touchy with male friends, can't wear the clothes that women wear in public without getting odd looks, can't move or talk in a certain way. I like being independent and like being able to act and look how I want, and I think being born with a woman's body has allowed me to do that. The one thing that takes away some parts of independence for women is fear of rape.

But even though I don't envy, I would desire to be both. It would be more suited to me sexually and mentally.

From: cj , 137 months, post #22

"Not being able to use a urinal would be a culture shock for men."

Maybe... but it's not so much the urinal as it is avoiding nasty public toilet seats... or when in the woods (or a hurry).

"It would be awesome to have both" (penis & vagina)

I've thought so too from time to time.

From: guest , 137 months, post #23

I could see how it could be envy on things like how a woman gets noticed or checked out when she's a good looking woman and wearing sexy outfit like a short skirt or dress that shoves off their legs, butt, and curves. There could also be some envy on how women can get out of doing physical stuff like carrying heavy things or picking up heavy things. And let's not forget the breeze that women get up their butt and crotch from the wind when they're wearing short skirts and dresses.

From: guest (Arcad) , 137 months, post #24

cj - I'm curious about this:

I've found I can finally get away with a nice backpack... the utility is there, the range of styles I can choose is not (and I'm not in an area where a man-purse is acceptable).

If there were more styles for men, would you get the same joy as you would if you turned into a woman and had the range of styles she has? I know there are other things that appeal to you about morphing into a woman for awhile, but JUST looking at clothes, is it about more styles or specifically styles for women?

From: guest (Pat) , 137 months, post #25

I think the insomniac is the closest I've even found someone who matches how I feel about all this.

I mostly would only be interested in the sexual aspect. I guess I think most everything else would be similar. Women don't really seem any different then men in most regards.

From: Forestier , 137 months, post #26

I mostly would only be interested in the sexual aspect. I guess I think most everything else would be similar. Women don't really seem any different then men in most regards.

You may be right. But we will never know for sure. Unless...

From: guest (J Lynwood) , 137 months, post #27

Think it's more an envy/curiosity for me, since I'm a man.

Would be great for a day.

From: guest , 137 months, post #28

The variety of clothes and styles would be interesting. So many different kinds of lingerie, shoes, tops, pants, shorts, hosiery, skirts, and dresses. When you're a guy, it's either shorts or pants with a tank top, t shirt, or long sleeve shirt. And you've only got guy sandals, sneakers, and dress shoes. Underwear is usually boxers or briefs.

From: cj , 137 months, post #29

Arcad,

As for purses/packs, I'm not sure I would get the same joy. I think for me it would be more a freedom to do thing. If I go to a movie, the backpack goes into the car trunk - with a purse, I could just carry it in. As a guy my pack is subject to searches more often than a woman's purse is - not legally, but sociologically. It's so normal for a woman to carry a purse with her pretty much everywhere. It's not so normal here (outside a city with lots of pedestrian traffic) for a guy to be carrying around a backpack. I make it work because of the work I do. Most situations though, I find I get very strange looks, avoidance, and even the occasional bag check when coming or (more-so) leaving.

As for the clothing... it's more about the fit and the form than the style. Maybe the fabric too. Oftentimes I chide (jokingly) my female friends for making a poor choice of outfit for the day where they choose fashion over function and have to deal with being cold. So that is not something I'd look forward to (the being uncomfortable to look good - the ribbing, I could take). The patterns and cuts don't interest me much - but a nice-feeling fabric could be exciting (even in my current form, if I could get away with it without looking non-conforming). I'm sure I'd be one of those women you see on "What NOT to Wear" for my fashion choices.

The fit is a really big thing to me. I want to know what it's like to have clothing that clings to and accentuates my feminine form (if I had one). The way the skirts flare, the panties hug, the tights itch, the bra constricts, etc. All but heels - I'm still not too keen on heels - though I'm sure I'd wear them... necessary evil and all that.

So, overall... no - more joy as a woman (or maybe a modified man if social norms changed) than if the social norms allowed for more styles for men. Mostly because my 'joy' is more centered around having a female body, than the greater style selection women have. But I admit - I would love it if we (men) could get away with wearing some of the same types of things that you women get to enjoy (or endure, as the case may be).

From: guest , 137 months, post #30

I'd be curious to see how people both men and women would react to my female appearance and figure especially if I was wearing something that was sexy or showed off curves and booty. Swimming would be definitely different. I could no longer go topless and the swimsuits that I would wear would show off my butt cheeks, cleavage, and stomach. I think I'd go with a sexy black 1 one piece. I think that's what the Lola in Portugal wore in an episode for a brief time. It was a shame she couldn't have dressed like that more often.

From: guest (solenthas) , 137 months, post #31

personally i think my desire to experience what being a woman is like is an offshoot of my desire to control things. how much more control can you have over a woman than actually being that woman? my other major fetish follows suit: mind control.

From: Forestier , 137 months, post #32

If there were more styles for men, would you get the same joy as you would if you turned into a woman and had the range of styles she has?
Not at all. I want a woman body . This being said, if I became a woman, I would like to wear some clothing choice I would not as a man, like leggings or tight pants (wouldn't like to crush my sexual organs), some color (light ones, flashy), lower neckline.

From: guest (Pat) , 137 months, post #33

I certainly believe what solenthas wrote applies to me.

From: guest (JohnnyBravo) , 123 months, post #34

Definitely a topic worth reviving...good read in this thread.

Wish we could get more genetic female opinions on the opposite sex.

From: guest (lily) , 123 months, post #35

@cj # 11 The vast selection and materials and styles of clothing - many designed for appearance more than function.

Which means you get to spend 3 hours going through the "vast selection" in four different departments of Thalhimer's... sorry Hecht's ... I mean Macy's ... and finding nothing.

Variety doesn't equal increased latitude of choice.

I'd really need a flow-chart to explain it properly, but the decisions on what to buy/wear are ranked more or less like this:

1 - Is it appropriate for the occasion (casual/work/dress/formal)?
2 - Does it fit me?
3 - Can I get away with this?
a) Is it age-appropriate?
b) Is it currently in fashion?
i) Is it in fashion for real, or is it only in fashion on television?
ii) is it so trendy that it Is it going to look dated tomorrow?
4 - Can I afford it?
5 - Will I ever wear it again?
a) Will I be able to wear it with a different top/different skirt/slacks?
b) Do I have shoes that I can wear with this?
c) Will it be warm enough/cool enough to wear next season?
6 - Will it be difficult/costly to maintain?

About underwear, women's clothing is often constructed in such a way that it reveals what you have on underneath. So a strapless bra is less about the bra than it is about wanting/needing to wear a halter or something with a scoop neckline.

Likewise, thong panties are less about the panties than they are about the clingy or tight clothing that would otherwise show a panty-line.

And there is, of course, the issue of what you are expected to wear. A man might have fewer choices of clothing styles overall, but those few choices are appropriate in more contexts. A guy can wear jeans or chinos to work, or to a party, or out to a club. A woman is more often expected to dress for the occasion.

An anecdote: I was called in to work to deal with a minor crisis over the weekend, I showed up wearing baggy jeans and pullover. I did not stop to put on make-up or brush out my hair. On my way to the my desk my appearance was pointed out to me by the security guard (a woman), a technician (a 24 year old man who works for me), and two male colleagues who'd also been called in and who were also dressed for the weekend.. It wasn't particularly intrusive or offensive, but it indicates -- I think -- just how "clothing choices" play out for women.

As for handbags, they are a trap. I carried one for a while. It was a useful prop, I thought. Men don't carry purses, and it gave me something to hang on to. It rapidly filled with all kinds of useless crap. When I got more comfortable in my presentation, I went back to putting my wallet and keys in my pockets (another clothing choice for me "does it have pockets large enough to hold my wallet, keys, and phone").

Don't misunderstand. I really like dressing up and I do -- occasionally -- enjoy shopping for clothes. But it is time-consuming, frustrating, and often disappointing. Most of the items comprising the "vast variety" are for someone else.

From: guest (JohnnyBravo) , 123 months, post #36

Awesome post Lily! Greatly appreciate the insight!

I don't think there is any illusion to women needing more thought, consideration and maintenance to upkeep their appearance. I didn't quite consider the laundry list in choosing clothing though...that is a lot to take into account!

My question would be do you think the payoff is worth it? Do you feel like all that extra time is justified when considering the end result...i.e. being a knock-out at the party, being complemented on your looks or feeling sexy in that little black dress (or what's on underneath).

My biggest envy/curiosity definitely is regarding underwear / beachwear (bikinis). It is an experience that is difficult to replicate as a male. Now who knows...i might tire of it in a week or a month, but it always drives me crazy thinking about it.

What is it like walking the beach in a cheeky bikini bottom and having your body so exposed. Is it exhilarating? Is it something that you would rather trade in for a man's experience of being able to blend in and be less noticed?

From: cj , 123 months, post #37

Thanks Lily!

That's the type of thing that many of us just don't know - but want to experience... so that we do know.

From: guest (lily) , 123 months, post #38

@JohnnyBravo #36 My question would be do you think the payoff is worth it?... feeling sexy in that little black dress (or what's on underneath).

I like it when I hear "That looks good on you." or similar. It sounds like "you have good taste and are smart enough to dress yourself."

The "feeling sexy part" is kind of a loaded question. I'm trans and of a generation that had to run the gauntlet of therapists and other gatekeepers on the lookout for "fetishistic cross dressers". I honestly don't know anymore if I really never got a thrill from dressing up, or if saying that so many times at a critical time in my life made me believe that about myself.

I've also spent a lot of time and effort on "passing" (another controversial topic among trans folk), so I get a little uneasy when anyone takes enough notice of my appearance to pay me a compliment.

My biggest envy/curiosity definitely is regarding underwear / beachwear (bikinis). It is an experience that is difficult to replicate as a male. Now who knows...i might tire of it in a week or a month, but it always drives me crazy thinking about it.

Can't help you with the bikini question; I have long scars on my back and flank (motorcycle accident) about which I was too self-conscious when I was young and fit enough for a two-peice. I've sort-of covered the scars with a tattoo, but now, a bikini mostly exposes cellulite and middle-aged paunch.

Werd thing about the beach; showing skin is the way to blend in. If everybody is stripped down, it is the person in the cover-up who gets noticed. When I had more of a beach-body I was more worried about my covered torso than I was about my exposed legs and shoulders.

I had an ex with a lingerie fetish. It was a fun to wear a corset and stockings under my "street clothes", but it was -- I think -- mostly because I knew that it was a turn-on for my partner. I wouldn't like to be exposed like that in public, and I'd have been mortified if I thought anyone else knew what I had on (or why).

On the topic of envy, I envy the crap out of women with the nerve to dress in that kind of costume in front of strangers.

From: guest , 123 months, post #39

I guess envy because an attractive woman or even not attractive woman can get a man to do just about anything. Men cave more to women than vice versa. I mean if you become a woman, all you got to do is put on a nice dress or skirt outfit with some heels and maybe black pantyhose and use body language and some man will be under your control.

From: guest , 123 months, post #40

For me, I can't separate the two. I envy women because I desire to be a woman. The desire to be a woman definitely comes first, though. There's no specific or rational reason I envy women; rather, I envy all women because they get to be women and I don't get to be one.

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